More debate about ethics and the seduction community

Below is a response to a client email taking me to task for promoting Acceptance, Compassion, Empathy, and Detachment on one of the seduction communitiy's message boards.

In it, I ask my client a series of questions about his values:

Me:
> 1) Are you ashamed that you study Pick-up and Seduction? Do you keep it
> secret? Does your family know about it? Your friends? The women you are
> close to?


Client:
not really, but i don't consider myself a pick-up artist. i
definitely share with people that i study human interaction, which is
more accurate as i've been reading about psychology and sociology
since i was a kid and majored in psychology in college, and mASF is
one small recent part of that. i've talked to everyne from chicks to
friends to my mom (who's a devout catholic, and actually agrees with
most everything i've said regarding meeting and interacting with
girls, i just leave out the sex when talking to her. she thinks modern
men are weak and is relieved to know that i don't think that way).

Me:
So sex is shameful? Why? Can you talk to your father openly about it? My mother is catholic, and we talk about sex....not explicitly of course, but we don't shy away from the topic - she knows about my lifestyle and ideas regarding women...I am not ashamed of anything I do socially, or the fact that I am sexual.

Client
but i do feel there's something inherantly lame in a person calling
themselves a pick-up artist.

Me:
Lol...yes

Client:
that shows that they define themselves
by their ability to pick up chicks, which is lame to a lot of people
because it's so outcome dependent, and dependent on CHICKS no less.
that's lame.

Me:
yup. Same with lables like "gay" and and "Bi" and "Fem" and "Emo" - things I'm currently being called on the boards....all while I lead a vibrant and open social and sex life with women...

Client:
just like salesmen are regarded by many as inherantly
lame. i define myself as an artist, .... whether or not i have a chick
around means absolutely nothing to my self worth or self definition.

Me:
You have DETACHMENT. Women generaly dislike men who are needy or clingy. They respect men with ambition and a sense of purpose and direction in thier lives.

Me:
> 2) If you are ashamed, ask yourself why....what is shameful about the
> community and what it teaches?
>
> 3) Ask yourself how and if my approach differes, if you do indeed sense that
> something is "not quite right" about the whole seduction community and it's
> approach to socialization.

Client:
i like the idea of "check your ethics at the door and let's figure
this shit out." that is pure science and how progress is made. are
some of the guys off? of course. you want ethics though? go to
church! the LAST thing dudes need on mASF is another holier than thou
motherfucker PREACHING ETHICS to them while they're trying to learn
how to get laid, esp when the rules of the board clearly state "no
ethics." dude the greeks figured out its best to check your ethics
1000s of years ago.

Me:
You just brought up ethics, not me. But since you did....

=)

Client:
also, you're "sensing" something "isn't right." that's chick shit
dude. women's intuition.


Me
"Chick shit"? another perjorative label....I love women, and don't consider what they do "shit" - eapecially thier cognitive starategies and emotional make-up. It may occassionaly be disfunctional or counter productive to happieness and well being, but then men have disfunctional cognitive strategies and beliefs too.

Do you think you are perfectly rational?

Men have no intuition? Intuition should not be trusted? You never have "gut" feelings? You don't take them into consideration when making decisions?

I believe the human mind is like a monkey (conciousness) riding an elephant (the unconcious). If the elphant really wants to go somewhere, it's going, and the monkey is just along for the ride.

Look at the stock market - that's run by MEN. You think it's RATIONAL?

Football, mountain climbing, mixed martial arts.

What about MUSIC?...lol....

Men are just as emotional as women, we delude ourselves into thinking we are not. Denial of our emotional make-up is weakness. It is the source of much unhappieness and pain and disfunction.

Client:
....acting on feelings. most of mASF is based
on raw scientific research without judgment.

Me:
"raw scientific research"?

c'mon...what we do at best rises to level of amature social anthropology. There are no formal studies, no control groups, and no peer reviewed journals.

True scientists would laugh at our methods - what we do is guided much more by intuition, hunches, feeling, and sensing than by cold hard logic. It must be - human beings are fluid and unpredictable creatures.

Client:
it even follows the
scientific method in having an idea, putting together a procedure that
tests it, putting that procedure to action in the field, and
summarizing the results. after being tested successful several times
in the field by different dudes, it becomes theory. thats what dudes
come to mASF for. not ethics. .

Me:
Eventualy all social, medical, and even physical science must confront ethics.

Ever hear of the hypocratic oath? Why do doctors make a vow to "First, do no harm"?

It goes back 2500 years to the Greeks.

Client:
now you ask yourself, why do you need to be mr. ethics on the mASF
board? what are YOU trying to prove? have you slipped into defining
yourself as a pick-up GURU and now need your angle? are ethics REALLY
the only place you're able to bring something new to the community?
could it be theres a hole there because EVERYONE ELSE CHECKS THEIR
ETHICS AT THE DOOR as is stated in the rules?

Me:
What are rules? Who made them? Why were they made? Are we allowed to question rules?

The very lack of ethics in the community constitutes an ethic. I'm simply questioning the form the ethics of community take, and thier utility for promoting happiness.

What is your meta purpose in studying seduction?

The guys I coach think that "getting pussy" is going to solve all thier problems and make them happy. Guess what?

It wont, at least not in and of itself. They are deluded in the same way lottery winners think money will solve all thier problems. The truth is sobering - but it's where I start with my clients, because what I promote is well being - sex is a part of that, but it is not sufficient to create it.

Nothing external is.

The thing is, once you reach a state of inner well being, sex will happen naturally and organically for you. You will no longer need "game" or status or any other external trappings. This is what I mean by Acceptance - you must have self acceptance before you can offer acceptance to others. It's actually selfish in that sense in that it operateson the principal of reciprocal altruism.

Client:
you know what happens when you color everything with ethics? you
become like every other religious fool that becomes absolutely
impossible to discuss and debate with. try having a rational
discussion about pro-life/pro-choice with a religious person. you
can't. you go to science, they go to ethics (the bible), and the
debate can't even begin! guess what? that's YOU right now on masf!

Me:
What interests me as that none of the masterminds have a cogent response to the points I'm making about historic seducers - both positive ones like Gahndi, and negative ones like Manson.

What exactly is the difference between them? They all use the same tactics like hypnosis, frame control, and dominance to impose thier will on others - to get others to follow them and do thier bidding.

What is the difference

Think about it....